Following criticism of some of the penalties served to drivers during the Japanese Grand Prix Formula One Management has published a montage of footage showing new angles of the incidents.
Most of the angles were not shown to fans who saw the standard F1 television footage as provided to ITV and many other stations during the race.
I’ve had a look at the videos and it’s given me some new thoughts on the incidents. Have a look for yourself and post your comments below.
Hamilton and Raikkonen
I’d seen the first two shots before. The third, slightly higher angle makes it very clear that it was Heikki Kovalainen, not Lewis Hamilton, that put Kimi Raikkonen off the circuit.
Watching the onboard from Hamilton made me realise he hadn’t actually out-braked himself by as much as I originally thought he had – he did go off the circuit, but not as far as I first thought.
This made me realise Raikkonen must have braked a bit late for the corner as well – though not as late as Hamilton – or surely Hamilton would have shot past him and Raikkonen would have been able to turn into the corner, as we’ve seen happen many times before (think Massa and Hamilton at Sepang last year).
Read more about this incident: Hamilton and Raikkonen?s Fuji clash – the penalty they got wrong (Video)
Massa and Hamilton
Not much new here – Mass clearly hit Hamilton and deserved a penalty. But the onboard camera from Massa gives me the impression it was not an intentional take-out, as some people have suggested, just a bad misjudgement by Massa.
Read more about this incident: Massa and Hamilton?s Fuji crash – the penalty they got right (Video)
Bourdais and Massa
I wrote before that I didn’t think the external camera angle made it possible to say will total certainty that Bourdais was innocent. Unfortunately none of the new angles help answer that either. For me the key question is: was Bourdais right up against the inside of the corner when the two touched?
However it seems clear to me there was more Massa could have done to avoid the incident. He has space to his left to use to avoid Bourdais, Bourdais had very little space to his right, if any at all.
I think the stewards should have stayed out of this one – it was a racing incident. By getting involved, they will find themselves expected to uphold this dubious precedent in the future. And the same goes for the Hamilton/Raikkonen incident.
Read more about this incident: Bourdais gets 25s penalty
Still, it’s good to see F1.com making worthwhile use of their enormous media resources. Here’s a few more suggestions for them.
A similar thing happened after last year’s Fuji race when the incident between Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel was re-investigated after new footage emerged on the Internet that had been shot by a fan.
Have these new videos changed your interpretation of the three penalties handed out at Fuji this year?
Comments have been split across multiple pages. If you are having difficulty viewing the pages, click here to see all comments.
beneboy
14th October 2008, 21:03
Nice shots, especially the on-board shots.
None of them changed my mind though, The fist corner was the result of several drivers mistakes, mostly Lewis & Heiki but others too.
I didn’t think any penalty was needed though.
Massa & Lewis was just a coming together during an overtaking move, all fair game in my book so again, no penalty needed.
Massa & Bourdais looked mostly Massa’s fault, Seb had nowhere else to go. They were fighting for position & Seb would have made the corner if Massa had left him a cars width on the inside rather than trying to close the door on him.
So Massa deserved a drive through for causing an avoidable accident.
I can understand why the stewards saw it differently to me, I just don’t agree with them.
Kester
14th October 2008, 21:04
I think the camera angles show that Kimi tried to turn in on at least 2 occasions, but was however blocked by Hamilton’s out of control car. I still believe whilst harsh, the penalty had a clear reason. Hamilton stopped Kimi from turning in, and being the first corner, Kimi knew that 18 cars were behind him, and he couldn’t have braked harder without causing a larger accident.
Also, Kimi was at the right speed to take the turn, Lewis couldn’t have turned because his tyres weren’t giving him any kind of grip, and what little it did was needed for braking. You can’t use grip for braking to turn as well. It’s a one or the other kind of thing.
The second part (Massa/Hamilton) pretty clearly sums up that it wasn’t intentional, but was probably a pretty stupid decision on Massa part. Regardless I think it was a racing incident; Lewis wasn’t a car length ahead and should have probably given a little more room. Not that I’m excusing Massa for not slowing further or taking the grass more. It really seems to me like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
And the Bourdais incident looks to me like he lost control of his car. You can see just before they collide that Bourdais makes 2 corrections to his steering. Also in the on board with Massa, a split second before they collide, Bourdais back end steps out. Seeming to show that he got some oversteer on his cold tyres, sliding in to Massa. Finally, when Massa car comes round, you can see Bourdais quite a way off the apex.
Although again, Massa could have made it easier on him self by giving a little more room.
Moo
14th October 2008, 21:05
On the Bourdais penalty, the footage from Massa’s mirror makes me think that Massa thought that Bourdais was a bit further behind him.
Owen
14th October 2008, 21:07
The new angles haven’t done anything to explain their decisions really. Turn 1 – I still think that’s a racing incident and if you wanted to be really picky you’d have to penalise Heiki, but I wouldn’t.
Massa/Hamilton – I agree with you here Keith, a mistake from Massa rather than anything more sinister. Hamilton’s onboard show that he had a look, then tucked in behind Massa to follow him through the corner. It was Massa’s mistake that he ran wide and Hamilton just went through as you’d expect. Massa should have backed off.
Bourdais – other than slam his brakes on to let Massa past, I still can’t see what else Bourdais was supposed to do, especially if that directive from Whiting that cars exiting pit lane have right of way is true.
Cavaet – I’ve tried to look at these incidents separately, without bias toward any driver just as if they all took place among backmarkers and had no bearing on the Championship.
Nick
14th October 2008, 21:09
form the onboard Kimi was about to turn in, had to turn back twice on lewis and wouldn’t have made the turn and then Kov pushes him completely off.
Robert McKay
14th October 2008, 21:11
I think both Hamilton and Kovi are to “blame” for forcing Kimi wide, but I don’t think that that in itself warranted a penalty. I don’t know how two-thirds of the field can use the huge run-off apron at La Source on the opening lap of the Belgian GP and noone there be deemed to have done no “forcing wide”. In fact most race starts we see features someone optimistically outbraking themselves and making someone else take avoiding action – so this one is just a bit, well, made-up.
Massa-Bourdais is pretty much the dictionary definition of racing incident. Massa slightly more in the wrong, but not really worthy of a penalty. To give it to Bourdais was just completely wrong.
Massa-Hamilton is the most clear cut of the three, but 4 or 5 years ago all three would have been deemed racing incidents and the only recrimination might have been a quick stern talking to of the driver involved in private after the race was over.
As an aside, it’s nice that the FOM/Bernie official site is actually acknowledging that there are controversial decisions, whereas normally they stick their heads in the sand and hope it goes away. And if they are going to go round youtube taking the videos down, at least if they put them up on their own site it is more acceptable/understandable.
Too Good
14th October 2008, 21:17
My Opinion hasn’t changed much. If you check the live Blog my responses were what they are after watching the Official Videos.
First lap first corner incident – This is most common incident on race start in F1. I used to have tickets at 1st corner of Indianapolis the breadth of the tarmac on T1-T2 was half that of long straight and almost every year we had first corner pile-up I have taken photos to support my view. Never remember any Penalties given Before. Same thing almost every year happens at Monza race start where at least few cars end up missing the Chicane.
Massa/Hamilton – I had mentioned during in Live Blog as well. Massa had no other place to go at that point. Other option he had was to brake hard and get rear ended by driver after him, that would have ended his race on the spot. rather losing nose and making stop for nose change was better alternative. When I look at this incident other incident comes to my mind is due to lack of visibility Lewis who had off track excursion, came back on track and had incident with Kubica at Fuji Last year. I don’t remember any one talking anything about that incident. It was candidate for potential DT for Hamilton.
Bourdais/Massa – Did any of the Knowledgeable stewards tell Bourdais, the line he should have taken? I would love to hear the Stewards rationale in this absurd penalty. In case there was guilty party here it was ambitious massa.
Incidentally Ted Kravitz has named the leader of stewards at Fuji its one They were headed by Graham Stoker, who is the chairman of the UK Motor Sport Association.
Knowing this I wonder why Massa backers are not claiming victimization of Massa by Graham. Massa Hamilton was more than anything a “Racing Incident” Just think of all Coulthard incidents this year. Don’t remember DC or the other party given a Drive Through.
Its just that the Stewards have become over cautious post SPA and hence the gaffes.
Another talk during Live Blog was Independent Stewards who travel with the circus. With the above example rest assured they would be facing ire of fans for their rulings. The root cause of the problem is inconsistencies and non professionalism in general way FIA operates.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
14th October 2008, 21:24
Too Good – the Fuji stewards were Stoker, Jose Abed and Kzunari Yamanashi, plus of course Alan Donnelly (PDF of Hamilton penalty document).
Too Good
14th October 2008, 21:25
Part of the problem with “Over Agressive” Approach of Lewis is for some of his indiscretions on the track in his rookie year the Stewards/FIA/FOM took Softer approach as all of them were trying their best to let him win Championship in rookie year,which would have been a great boost for F1 in Particular and motorsports in General.
Its that over confidence that has resulted in Lewis crossing that fine line of agression and fool hardiness
Chaz
14th October 2008, 21:27
hehehe I saw it a while ago and was amazed they put it up. I guess it’s a start, but alas yet again they fell short by not showing it from more angles and from all those drivers involved especially with more from the in-car camera perspectives to help us get a better objective view.
I take a different view regarding the Lewis/Massa incident. In my view it shows he deliberately hit lewis. You can clearly see that no one part of Massa’s car was on the black tarmac in the second part of the ‘S’ bend with half the car on the grass and half on the raised red and white curb indicating he was comprehensibly beaten (not to mention he clearly out braked himself) and chanced his luck by deliberately ramming Lewis and got away with it by not receiving at the very least a 10 second stop go penalty and 5 place grid penalty at the next race for bad sportsmanship. Surely if it was a street circuit he would have hit the wall as was his remark regarding Lewis and the Spa controversy.
Too Good
14th October 2008, 21:30
Keith as a Non FA /FM/LH supporter, I am just pointing that, if Lewis and his fans feel that persecution by FIA. Massa and his fans can claim the similar. and the resulting situation will spiral out of control.
EPL referees , NBA Umpires and even “Neutral” Cricket umpires have not fully addressed the “persecution complex” the teams & fans feel their “team was done” on purpose. And even Bunch of “Neutral Independent Stewards” will not alleviate the problem. Fans will always find some connection to prove that their team was “done with”
dmw
14th October 2008, 21:31
The videos are helpful.
Incident 1. Its clear that HAM and KOV out break themselves. RAI would have held the road but not the apex. But KOV is the real stinker here. Why was he right up his teammate’s chuff AND even later on the breaks? He was actually out of control. If Hamilton had braked properly, there would have been two McLarens on hooks. If we are grading on forced-curve, penalty goes to KOV. And the penaly on HAM is inexplicable–RAI would have actually gone under him on the exit but for KOV.
Incident 2. It was not deliberate, but Massa was out of control. Its not like he tipped Hamilton on the way in as Hamilton closed the door—he made a nice chord through the grass as if to build more speed for the attack. Foul on Massa.
Incident 3.
Looks better for Massa. Bourdais was clearly behind. However, Massa had all the room in the world to avoid this. He did not have to slam the door mid-corner to get past. This is “racing,” but a massive brain-fade by Massa.
We are lacking this topic, but foul on the Fuji feed. Our feed in American was disgusting. I had never seen so may slow-mo replays of the 18th place car getting lapped.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
14th October 2008, 21:35
Too Good – I know, was just making it clear everyone knew there’s more than one steward.
Before the season began the FIA were talking about not allowing any stewards that shared nationality with any of the participating F1 drivers, but they must have dropped the idea.
Mr Soap
14th October 2008, 21:46
It doesn’t really change my view of anything, really.
– Yes, Hamilton blocked Raikkonen, but without Kovalainen there, Raikkonen would still have made the corner. You can’t be held responsible for what other drivers do. The entire point of overtaking is to block the other car from the ideal line, but without Kovalainen, another line round the corner would’ve existed.
-Massa was at fault. You should know if you go that drrp into the first corner, then you’ll have to go slowly at the second corner in order to make it through, and haven’t a chance of racingthe person in front if they’re already that far infront of you. Interesting to not the parts of bodywork flying off though.
-Massa was at fault. He had the entire road to use. As far as I can tell from the inadequate clips they’ve provided, Bourdais front right tyre is still tight to the kerb, and so there’s little else he can do. There’s certainly not enough evidence that Bourdais was in the wrong to give him the penalty they did.
diseased rat
14th October 2008, 21:50
The first corner penalty is dubious, I can see both sides of it really and don’t feel comfortable coming down on either side. The one thing I would say is that in marginal situations I would err on the side of not giving a penalty.
It’s very clear from the Massa and Hamilton incident that Massa had to drive completely outside the white lines – and thus off the track – in order to get his car in a position capable of nudging Hamilton. If he had stayed on the track then it’s a racing incident but because he cut the corner it’s a straightforward penalty.
The Bourdais Massa incident is just asinine. Massa either thought he was lapping Bourdais and ignored him or just plain did not realise he was there. If he did know he was there then the move was an entirely unnecessary risk as was his veering across the pitlane exit to overtake on Webber.
Anyway, these videos just underline that neither of the top two title contenders is looking remotely like a complete world championship winning package at the moment. Hopefully the title will be decided by who can hold it together best, rather than a mechanical fault.
pflugi
14th October 2008, 22:25
I suppose the thing that bothers me the most about all of these penalties is that Hamilton didn’t cause anything at the first turn and gets a drive-through, Bourdais doesn’t cause anything and gets a 25 second penalty (determind after the race for who knows what reason), and Massa causes two accidents and drives so bizarrely on another pass, but only gets one penalty for something so obvious that it’s hard to fathom him being excused for it. Bourdais’ comments were right: if you don’t roll out the red carpet for Ferrari, you’re penalized. I guess we shouldn’t expect anything less from a massively biased governing agency and a driver tutored by the most ruthless of them all: Schumacher. I like Schumacher, but he drive like an ass; I don’t like Massa and he has been driving like an ass.
It’s getting to the point where I might stop watching Formula 1 because I HATE watching a great race only to be annoyed that some nannies decided that someone looked at a Ferrari wrongly. If a race can’t be fair most of the time, what do you have? A freakin’ circus. I miss the Champ Car world series.
Becken
14th October 2008, 22:27
I´m still trying to see how Lewis has had pushed Massa “a little bit wide in the gravel” as my fellow has claimed…
The footage from Massa´s onboard camera shows that he just missed the brake point and Lewis did a free and easy pass…
This kind of Massa´s attitude annoys me. He never admits his mistakes…
David - BR
14th October 2008, 22:32
1. No Penalty. Hamilton just overbrakes, the rest is just recovery (he doesn’t really change angle). As someone said, Raikkonen taking an excursion off track at the start is hardly a novelty – he used it in Spa to really good effect.
2. Penalty. Massa has slowed down for the second corner, sees Hamilton ahead and accelerates again while cutting the corner deliberately, I think, making hitting Hamilton a near certainty. Iffy indeed. I thought this was OK with earlier footage but a definite penalty and maybe deliberate.
3. No Penalty (but Massa’s fault). Bourdais he simply cuts up. But it really looks like Massa he had no idea Bourdais would be there with him at the corner: I guess he assumed 100% that Bourdais would give way since it was obvious he (Massa) would lose out if he didn’t.
ceedas
14th October 2008, 22:47
Either they’re all racing accidents which don’t deserve a penalty or they all deserve a penalty. Three or four years ago none of these would be punished, now they are.
Hamilton’s driving on the opening lap was shocking, he was far too busy thinking about the poor start, as in Brazil last year. He really needs to cope under the pressure better because this is his championship to lose now, and he’s doing a good job of doing just that so far.
Massa’s counter attack was clumsy to say the least, but you can’t really hit someone without risking damage to your own car, so to suggest it was intentional is just silly.
And as for the Bourdais thing, well, I wouldn’t have given a penalty, but if you give Massa one earlier for tipping someone into a spin, then it is fair that the next person to do the same thing gets the same penalty.
Oliver
14th October 2008, 22:54
I’ve seen the videos and it doesn’t change my opinion.
Lewis, outbraked Kimi, but Heikki was carrying even more speed through the corner. Almost every driver ran wide.
Lewis’ move was risky but not dangerous. Also, preventing a driver from turning into a corner has always been the essence of overtaking. Conclusion, Risky but nothing out of the ordinary.
On Lewis – Massa, Massa ran wide, lost momentum, saw he was already behind then accelerated too hard to make the corner at the same time going over the kerbs. He was not forced wide at any point. Lewis didn’t put a wheel near the kerbs. Its even obvious that Massa’s front wheels where already slightly behind Lewis’ rear wheel, before Massa accelerated. Conclusion, Massa refused to accept he had lost.
As for those who said Hamilton was too impatient to get past Massa, I want them to show me where on that patch of the circuit he could have waited for Massa to sort himself out. If he had. Massa would force him so wide he might still have been passed by a few cars
In the last incident, I am angry with Bourdais, he should have made no attempt to hug the inner kerb, but rather drive straight on. He gave Massa the room to give the impression Massa was in the right. Bourdais was only trying to protect the senior Ferrari. Whoever’s decision it was to penalize him, should get jail time.
Brad P
14th October 2008, 22:56
First two, tit for tat.
As for the third, Massa clearly wasn’t looking..
ceedas
14th October 2008, 22:56
Having just watched the extra FOM footage, I’m actually more inclined to think that it was a 50/50 racing incident.
SoLiD
14th October 2008, 22:57
I Must admit that Hamiltons first corner looks more agressive from the higher view!
But still racing must be supported and they are not doing that atm. All those extra ppl watching f1 arent going to stick around if they keep trowing penalties like this around
David Watkins
14th October 2008, 23:03
It was obvious anyway but at least that extra footage further confirms that when Massa says “Lewis pushed me off” he is talking nonsense and he knows it. Lewis didn’t get anywhere near him as they made the turn in.
Nice footage of the tyre destruction too! As it moved off the line LH’s car sounded like a 30-year old Trabant on a freezing December morn
Adam D
14th October 2008, 23:19
Guys, gr8 fact that F1.com finally put some footage up of that.
The Lewis/Raikonnen one shows that Lewis was rightly penalised, he did push Kimi off and Heikki actually pushed him off more. Saying that though that kind of thing’s been going on for years at the first turn. Schumacher got away with it all the time. Anyway in my opinion the penalty was fair enough.
Massa’s on Lewis – spot on. Enough said. Massa made an error and he paid for it.
As for Sebastien Bourdais well im sorry but that was a joke. Bourdais had no more room left on the track and broke to seemingly let Massa through. Felipe got his turn in wrong and wrecked Bourdais’s race in the end by costing him 3 brilliant well-earnt championship points that the frenchman throughly derserved. Instead of leaving the decision alone the FIA have ruined this because its so clearly wrong. Surley they should change it so these 25-second penalties can be restored. In my opinon Bourdais did zilch wrong, he gave Massa enough room and Felipe didn’t use it.
I hope that that penalty dosn’t frustrate Bourdais in the remaining 2 races and makes him lose his race seat because for me since Valencia he’s more than earnt his drive for next year. Its a joke that you cant appeal this decision because its so clearly wrong!
David Watkins
14th October 2008, 23:33
I’m sure STR will take the quality of his Fuji performance into account and will have an asterisk next to it on his report card
Toby
15th October 2008, 0:58
I don’t think Bourdais deserved a penalty, Massa did, Hamilton did not. What he did deserve was a good talking to from the race director/team/other pilots about his driving.
About halfway (maybe a little further) down the pitlane exit (white line) would be the start of the braking zone in my book, but it is at this point that Hamilton first moves out on Kovalainen. He then chops back to the left at Raikkonen, then a flick left immediately before he turns in. There is a definite reaction from Raikkonen to this flick that, I think, would have sent him off the circuit without the assistance of Kovalainen. Reckless driving from Hamilton, but since he didn’t ultimately push Raikkonen off (Kovi did), there shouldn’t have been a penalty.
Massa obviously had similar brain-fade in both of his incidents. The guy should know that two cars don’t fit in the same space on both occasions. Again, reckless driving that did result in an accident, therefore his penalty was justified.
As for Bourdais, no penalty required, but if there had to be one, I’d have given it to Massa for stupidity.
Oliver
15th October 2008, 1:36
Another point. Its obvious Hamilton didn’t touch with Kimi as he claimed in the press conference, things just happened to fast and he probably thought they did
Melanie
15th October 2008, 1:42
I think the video onboard with Hamilton is incredibly enlightening.
From that you can see that Hamilton after being passed by Raikkonen just goes straight and almost flat-out, (and of course in the process Kovalainen has to also take evasive action).
But Hamilton just goes straight and flat-out, now Hamilton knew where Raikkonen was on the track, (and he knew Raikkonen was taking more of a normal racing line). Hamilton only slams on the brakes when he is mere inches away from Raikkonen, which of course result in that big lockup. But now here is the question, he was going in way to deep and at much to high a speed, he was never going to make that corner, and at the angle he was travelling at he was obviously going to cross paths with Raikkonen. So I have to wonder what exactly his intentions where, when he was going that fast and on a collision path with Raikkonen?
He did not just outbrake himself he braked way too late and only when he was inches away from Raikkonen.
Why does he do this? I don’t think he wants an accident (that would obviously take him out of the race), but that would have been exactly what would have happened if Raikkonen didn’t get out of the way, by slowing down and running wide. The only conclusion left is that he braked late because he was counting on or hoping that Rakkonen would get out of the way, so that means he was bulling or pushing Raikkonen out of the way.
People were thinking from the premise that he only accidentally locked his brakes which causes the whole cycle of events, but from Hamilton’s onboard it is clear that he purpusely pursued a very straight path, a strange line and that he purposely brakes very late. My conclusion is that his action was not an accident, it was a plan very purposely executed by Hamilton (after being passed at the start), which makes all the difference in the end.
The thing is, we cant have rivals driving around like this on purpose. What if in China for example we have Raikkonen pushing Hamilton off the track so that Massa can have a better result or what if next time no one gives in and it causes an accident or a pile-up. I don’t think Mclaren or Hamilton himself would be very happy with the results if the Ferrari drivers would start to use the same type of tactics. It is a bit strange and ironic that Haug was so outspoken about such tactics before the start of the race. I don’t necessarily think the whole thing was planned, but the point is we just simply cant have these types of tactics going on.
I would like the stewards to give out less penalties, but unsportsmanship shouldn’t be encouraged.
The whole incident is actually very similar to the Hamilton and Massa incident, so I think this penalty was fair.
Milos
15th October 2008, 1:48
wow, F1.com actually did a little something we would expect them to do after every race :-)
a) kovi was the who touched Raikkonen but Hamilton was the one who made him to run wide. but still, a normal race start to me
b) Massa – misjudgement, racing incident
c) it does look, although still not clear, that Massa was ahead of Bourdais there. still, that does not justify the penalty for Bourdais
so, I still think that tere should have been no penalties at all in Fuji
P.S. they forgot to show us the less talked about but still controversial Massa on Webber maneuvre
Antonio
15th October 2008, 2:06
Like I said before LET THEM RACE!! They got all wrong.
the limit
15th October 2008, 2:41
All this fresh evidence just highlights the folly of the FIA and the stewards, and only adds value to the claims of the conspiracy theorists. The beginning of the race was brutal, hard racing, but no more extreme than we have seen in recent years.
How can we forget the infamous Schumacher ‘chop’ at the start of grands prix, inwhich he would slice infront of opponents, often resulting in near misses. There was never any question about penalties then, it was just explained away as good race craft on the part of Michael, which it was.
Hamilton saw space at the beginning of the race, a chance to pass Raikkonen on the inside, however Raikkonen allowed for this leaving his braking especially late. In one shot, you can see Raikkonen attempting to make the turn only to find that Hamilton is still there, and they ‘nearly’ collide. Kovalainen comes off the worst, as he actually tags Raikkonen, by which time Lewis is long gone. Now if there had been contact like there was between Hamilton and Webber at Monza, then the penalty handed out would have carried more weight.
The real reason Hamilton was punished was because it appeared that both Ferraris had lost out badly at the start due to this altercation, which probably resulted in a complaint being made to race officials from the Ferrari pitwall.
When Massa tagged Hamilton, McLaren almost certainly returned the favour. This debate is far more clear cut. Massa clearly gets the chicane wrong, entering it far too fast as he knows Hamilton is behind him. Lewis gleefully takes the space Massa’s Ferrari should have been taking, and makes it stick. After that, Massa has two options. Follow Lewis through the chicane and attempt to nail him later on the lap, or cut across the kerbs and attempt to nail him there and then. He takes the latter option, with predictable results.
I have read Massa’s explanation for this incident, and for me it does not hold water with the reality of what happened. His comment that Hamilton pushed ‘me onto the gravel’ resulting in the collision is crass. Massa clearly came back at Hamilton after making the mistake with a clear inclination to overtake, come what may.
He saw an opportunity, a chance that in that split second he could not resist, and took it. In many ways, it was not too disimular to Adelaide 1994, and the Schumacher/Hill shunt, inwhich Michael, wrong footed, gave Hill space to overtake, only to close the door at the last moment. Massa had the same mindset, he knew he could not let the McLaren stay infront of him.
As for Bourdais, he has my complete sympathy. The poor guy is really in a hole, and his penalty was the last thing his career needed. ‘What was I supposed to do, roll out the red carpet?’ Bourdais’ words sum up nicely the current enviroment of Formula One, inwhich some cars you can race and others you can’t.
And we all wonder why Montoya went back to Miami and his ovals?
mannn
15th October 2008, 2:55
since when do u get penalties for first corner incidents?! all these year, all those pileups and the FIA chooses to give DUBIOUS penalties now, You’re all missing the point, giving penalties for everything isnt what racing is about.
the limit
15th October 2008, 3:42
@Mann
That is exactly the point 90% of bloggers to this site are trying to make. The internal politics to this sport are crooked to put it mildly, and when you see videos like this, inwhich there has been no crime committed other than serious racing, it does seriously rankle.
Years ago, drivers won championships by delibrately running into a rival at the first corner and were never stripped of the title. Can you imagine, Hamilton hitting Massa at the first corner at Interlagos at 160mph and winning the championship, without getting a penalty? They would takeaway his superlicense and probably deduct McLaren fifty points from the 2009 season! Yet back in 1990, it was perfectly ok. The car Senna hit back then, a Ferrari.
Why have things changed? Because the sport is not run properly, and has been contaminated by scandal. There are now suggestions that Jean Todt may replace Mosley when perky retires. The ex Ferrari team principal as FIA president, ofcourse he will serve the sports interests very well won’t he. It will make Mosley’s reign look like the guilded age.
oricon
15th October 2008, 4:31
listen to what the master, Sir Jackie Stewart, said..
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44278
i totally share the same view as him if you remember what i said in [ Hamilton and Raikkonen’s Fuji clash – the penalty they got wrong (Video) ]
Hamilton > Deliberate,
Massa>Not intentionally but just silly
todd
15th October 2008, 4:33
LOVE IT. the FOM have finally got something right. all they need to do now is release even more and build a whole video section of the website.
todd
15th October 2008, 4:39
kovi based his braking point on when hamilton braked, hamilton was reckless into turn one, they are punishing hamilton for being reckless time and time again.
his late stupid braking (after he almost hit his team mate again) not only screwed up his teammates braking point, but also forced the 2 ferraris off the track from the chain of events that he caused.
he was jumped by kimi at the start in a HUGE way, KILLED by kimi at the start, if he braked right he had the inside line, he could have made kimi run wider (off the apex) and him on the apex, but that was just stupid braking. he killed his tyres too. useless.
todd
15th October 2008, 4:45
haha watch massa’s incar video, then watch hamiltons into that turn where they hit. hamiltons car is super bumpy from those flat spots, shaking all over the place.
zerogee
15th October 2008, 5:00
Both Massa and Hamilton drove appallingly. Neither of them were WDC material on Sunday.
But.
Hamilton braked late at turn one and actually stuffed his own race. He touched nobody, he didn’t impede anyone really in a racing sense even if he did in a legalistic sense. But Jarno is always impeding people racing him, that’s his job. No penalty, he committed no foul – he made a mistake. A biggish one. Where the hell Kimi got the idea they both hit him is beyond me, but he did say afterwards that it was racing.
Massa drove into Hamilton because, and I may have said this before, he’s an idiot. If you doubt me, watch the way he drove into Bourdais. The temerity of the stewards to hand Bourdais a penalty is extraordinary. While Massa probably could have got away without a penalty, he did create an avoidable situation and the way he rejoined made it look as if he were slightly bewildered – no gestures or hand-waving just body language that said ‘***?’
The most serious of these indiscretions is Massa’s off-track excursion to nerf Hamilton. No it wasn’t a Schumacher-esque move (I actually don’t credit Massa with the intelligence) but it was terrible, vengeful go-kart racing. I remember on the live blog everyone moaning that Hamilton can’t drive sensibly under pressure (he can’t) while conveniently forgetting Massa’s inability to do the same. They’re as bad as each other, but Massa lost his mind on that corner. He lost the position because he outbraked himself and only got it back by driving off the road. Penalty deserved, and a tongue-lashing from all concerned is in order too. Not WDC material.
Now, before everyone starts yelling at me about being pro-Lewis, I think Lewis the person is a little so-and-so who needs to learn manners, respect and class. He’s a twerp who needs to remember he is in a privileged position. He is also brilliantly, nail-bitingly spectacular to watch. Just not to listen to. Massa is becoming the same, especially after suggesting that Bourdais shouldn’t have been there. I’m with Bourdais – what more could he have done?
I think it’s hilarious that FOM video makes the FIA stewards looks stupid two times out of three…we can clearly see that in racing terms, Hamilton came nowhere near Kimi who was himself in serious trouble to make the corner. The Bourdais incident is so utterly, crystal clear one wonders if someone was behind the monitor the stewards were watching and kept showing skin mags to them at the crucial moments…One wonders where Heikki’s on-board vision has got to…
Mr Soap
15th October 2008, 5:55
I do find it odd that those who claimed Hamilton should be penalised in Belgium for cutting a chicane don’t think Massa should be for the same act. If he hadn’t punted Hamilton off, he could’ve just given the place back and waited for the next corner. However, that option wasn’t open, so a drive through penalty was about the only choice available.
Of course, I’d argue they were different, because Hamilton didn’t kick off his opponent, damage his opponent in any way, did give back the place, and the wet track/dry tyres/Raikkonens aggressive defense made actually taking the corner as normal impossible, but there you go. In light of Belgium, there was no way they couldn’t give a penalty.
Also, Massa wasn’t in anything like a position to take that corner normally, due to the action he’d had to take to avoid Trulli. Having had to pull off to the left like that, there’s no way you can expect to immediately retake someone who was less than a car length behind you before your mistake. That’s not just optimism. Very reminiscent of his Sauber days.
Sam B
15th October 2008, 6:02
Pleased to see that FOM realise that all these ridiculous stewards decisions are making people lose faith in F1, and that they need to do something to restore faith. The fact that the three videos show that the stewards got it wrong more than they got it right in many ways improves my view of FOM – it was already clear that penalties 1 and 3 were unjustified, but they released the videos anyway and we must give them some credit for that.
Frankly I hope the stewards now stop watching the races and let the rest of us just get on with enjoying it. Let’s face it – would the race have been better or worse if there had been 0 penalties instead of 3?
Number 38
15th October 2008, 6:03
So ….. what have I learned from the previous 38 postings, the first turn incident deserved no penalty, okay I’ll accept that but few if any considered the INCREDIBLE brain fade of young Mr. Hamilton. WHO is he racing against? He could have let Kimi win the race and it would have made no difference to him, as long as he finished ahead of Massa and that surely didn’t happen, eh? The response “I drive to win EVERY race” …..and I say few races are won in turn one! He is arrogant and often immature.
The Massa/Hamilton incident, again the lot of us is split nearly 50/50. Hammy was NEARLY past Massa and seemed to close the door and squeeze him off. I’m not going to quibble that part but some readers seem to think Massa DELIBERATELY drove into Hammy…………